Quran and the bible

This topic was up for discussion, and the following transpired

From: gladys kangethe
Friday, August 28, 2009 10:38:30 AM
Subject: Re: QU'RAN AND THE BIBLE

Hi all,I just want to make a comment on the topic.The reason why we have messed up people in the bible is to show us that all human beings have weaknesses and unlike other religions our God only recognises the blood of Jesus as the only thing that will make you acceptable before Him. Infact all the people God uses are not powerful but have dysfuntional families and glaring weaknesses which means that its only God who makes them accomplish what they do. When you accept Christ you are saved by grace which means you have not earned anything by your righteous acts which infact God calls "filthy rugs"!!!Now in the old testament everything was physical which was a foreshadow of the coming of Jesus as the bible says and this is why David or Samson or Joshua etc fought bloody battles.But you remember even though this was the case God was never happy with the shedding of blood still coz he said that David will not build him a temple due to his bloody hands and therefore commisioned his son solomon to build it. The real reason therefore why God shows us all this fighting is to bring to our attention that our faith is a battle against His enemies and He has chosen to fight through us. After Jesus we no longer fight flesh and blood but spiritual forces and so the same vigour of the OT we need to have but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. This makes us realise that even though people are evil, its the powers of satan behind them that make them so and through our prayers we can help them become children of God. Thats why Jesus asked us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us otherwise it would have been contradictory according to the OT not to fight those who are against God.Therefore as followers of Christ we are not called to hate muslims or any others but to love them and pray for them coz love never fails. Also it makes us realise that we are not better than anyone else but saved through His grace and so wont go judging others but will always be humbled by that great love of Jesus who died for our sins..all our sins (the world).My 2 cents.Gladys---

On Thu, 8/27/09, sagongonyi chemurwok wrote:
From: sagongonyi chemurwok Subject: Re: QU'RAN AND THE BIBLE:
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:27 PM

Sang,
I am not a schooled in this field but i have read a verse in the bible where a father has sexual relationship with his daughter for procreation. I have also read that God is happy when Israel kills the palestinians; like it happened with King David, Solomon, etc. How do you explain this? you mean God advocates killing other people? what does the verse of sexual relationship between father and daughter teach us as christians?
On 8/27/09, sang kip wrote: "MO"I expected that we would set rules of engagement before we commence our discussion but you went ahead and taught me Qu'ranic tradition.For that matter I want to make it clear that Qu'ran supports slavery, subduing and heavily taxing none Muslims (Sura 9:29), teaches that both angels and demons are servants of Allah (Jibril is an archangel that reveals Allah's will and plans to prophets, Israfil proclaims resurrection, Izrail is angel of death,Radwan is angel of paradise, while Jinn are both religious and evil angels), Men are above women in status (Sura 2:228), a woman is half a man (Sura 2:282), husbands are allowed to beat their wives as a way of disciplining them (Sura 4:34), no fault divorce is permissible (Sura 65:1), war against none Muslims is holy (Sura 9:5-6), those who die on religious duty against infidels with Qu'ran's words on their lips will reach paradise where they will be rewarded with beautiful virgins (Sura 44:54;55.70).Sura 4:34 which permits wife beating and sexual abstinence as punitive measures against wives has been subject of rationalization and a matter of confusion in Islamic scholarship.While the verse is unambiguously clear, Muslim scholars have wrestled with it to no avail in an effort to paint a different picture about it. How would you explain the verse without undermining its "grammaticality" and context?


Yahya 'MO'

Gladys ...please note that will type JESUS words in RED I respect your sense ...5:24 PM
(23 hours ago)

Gladys ...please note that will type JESUS words in REDI respect your sense of faith ..my apeal to you ...reexamine and identify the real mission of JESUS CHRIST ..while am agreeing he is a savior..the issue remains to "save who".....while its obvious to find that the greater part of the bible is devoted to the jews...many brothers and sisters kenyan christians fail to examing who really JESUS CHRISTcame to save.......it is not enough to shout or propagate in any magnetude without proof that HE CAME TO Save other than the jews ....for this matter "KENYAN CHRISTIANS" .....lets examine from the earliest law giver -MOSES ..he was a JEW who taught only jews and that all uncircumsised are branded in the BIBLE as unclean and unworthy of serving GOD ....even are not going to see ''UZIMA WA MILELE" Gen 17:14 ....a cross the board all the prophets including Jesus christ addressed themselves ,chastised and preached only to the JEWS.one other obvious thing you wont miss to note that JESUS words himself said he is sent and came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel Mathew 10 : 5-6 these 12 jesus sent and commanded them saying " go not to the way of the gentiles ,and the samaritans ENTER YOU NOT" ...further Jesus urged all jews to observe the laws and the comandments of Moses...Mathew 5:17-20 "think not that I am come to distroy the law or prophets ,am not come to destroy but to fulfil' ..... Even PAUL who contrary to the expressed commandments of Jesus became an appostle for the GENTILES ,warned them not to forget that the JEWS are the root of the olive tree while them (the gentiles) are but grafted branches....Romans 11:18 ,2: 9-10 ...so lets get to the grand question who did jesus come to save?.....Jesus says LUKE 19:10 "for the son of man is come to seek and save that which is lost" Mathew 15: 24 " am not SENT but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Jesus further details ...LUKE 22:29-30 "and i appoint unto you a kingdom ,as my father hath appointed unto me...that you may drink at my table in my kingdom and sit in thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of israel" please observe how jesus doesnt mix his words...JOHN 4:22 "you worship you know not what your worshiping, we know what we worship ,for the salvation is of the JEWS'' now observe how JESUS react to a non jew which can fit a KENYAN purhaps....Mathew 15:22-26 "and behold ,awoman of canaan come out of the same coast ,and cried unto JESUS ,saying have mercy on me ,o lord thou son of david : my daughter is grievously vexed with the devil...BUT JESUS ANSWERED HER NOT AWORD ....and his discple came and besought him...saying "SEND HER AWAY for she cried after us" but he answered and say " I AMNOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL" note that the response was to his appostle .....the verse continued "then come the woman and worshipped Jesus saying ..LORD help me...but JESUS answered and said "IT IS NOT SUITABLE TO TAKE THE CHILDREN BREAD AND CAST IT TO THE DOGS" so if i ask who were being refered as children and who were refered as DOGS.....and who is saying these words? please ponder .....this is a traditional reaction to non JEWS to be refered as DOGS unclean.....but remember Jesus has already taken the point home ..."sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel..." considers also peter's statement ACTS 10:28 "you know not that is unlawful thing for a man that is a JEW to keep company or come to one of another nations " note that : if jesus had broaden his mission all would have known ,also it would not be unlawfull for a JEW to be with a gentile...remember jesus limiting the apostle mission to the lost sheep of the house of israel had told peter and others that : Mathew 10:23 ''you shall not have gone over the cities of isreal till the son of man be come'' .......So where are the non-JEWS place in the future kingdom of HEAVEN? NOW listen to JESUS HIMSELF .....Mathew 19:27-28 ''then answered peter and said unto jesus behold ,we have forsaken all and followed you..what shall we ahve therefore ? and Jesus said unto them "VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU ,THAT YOU WHICH HAVE FOLLOWED ME,IN THE REGENARATION WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL SIT IN THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY ,YOU ALSO SHALL SIT UPON THE TWELVE THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL" so where are the non JEWS? place? or where is the throne for ST paul and his gentiles.....? NOW VERY IMPORTANT !!!listen to john revelations.....please open REVELATION 21:9-14 "And one of the seven angels who had the seven vessels in which were the seven last punishments, came and said to me, Come here, and see the bride, the Lamb's wife.And he took me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and let me see the holy town Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,Having the glory of God: and her light was like a stone of great price, a jasper stone, clear as glass:She had a wall great and high, with twelve doors, She had a wall great and high, with twelve doors, and at the doors twelve angels; and names on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.And on the east were three doors; and on the north three doors; and on the south three doors; and on the west three doors.And the wall of the town had twelve bases(foundations), and on them the twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb"compare this with....EXODUS 24:4 ''and moses wrote all the words of the lord and roseup early in the morning ,and built an alter under the hill and twelve pillars arcording to the twelve tribes of the house of israel" my brothers and sisters (kenyans) ponder on this issues you might not be in the list .... ....listen again to what JESUS is prophesing Mathew 10: 23 " BUT WHEN THEY PERSECUTE YOU IN THIS CITY DONT FLEE TO ANOTHER ,FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, YOU SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL ,TILL THE SON OF MAN COME BACK'' the idea therefore is that the israelites (jews) become the followers of Jesus ...otherwise no attention is paid to others (kenyans) ...and Jesus made it quite clear that the task of preaching to israel and converting them will not be completed and till his second coming....JESUS said Mark 9:1 "verily i say unto you that there be some of them that stand here which shall not taste death ,till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" even St paul believed that Jesus would returned in his own life time....1 the salonians 4:15-17 " for this we say unto you by the word of the lord ,that we which we live and remain unto the coming of the lord shall not prevent them which are a sleep...for the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout ,with the voice of the arch angel and with the trump of GOD ,the dead in crist shall rise first .....then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to the clouds to meet the lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the lord".... please note that....from the statements of both Jesus and paul we can observe that there was no need for the apostle to go to all nations as there would have been no time for such a universal MISSION...so who preached to the GENTILES contrary to jesus teaching?please rise any question on the point of lerning will try to shade more light lets be objective and know the truth....thanks MO...

Erastus Marugu 11:55 AM (5 hours ago)

MO,I am drawn to the bible verse you quoted in your commentary John:4:22. Now if you read the chapter in context, i.e the whole chapter you will see it paints a whole different picture. It starts off with Jesus on his journey to Galilee and passes through Samaria in the city of Sychar and sits near the well of Jacob. Then the Samaritan woman comes to draw water and here is the coversation between Jesus and the woman From John 4:77

When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.) 9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a]) 10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." 11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" 13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." What is this water that Jesus is speaking of to the Samaritan woman? The passage continues thus 15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water." 16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back." 17"I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true." 19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." (Now this is important) 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." 27Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?" 28Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29"Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ[b]?" 30They came out of the town and made their way toward him. 31Meanwhile his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something." 32But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about." 33Then his disciples said to each other, "Could someone have brought him food?" 34"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps' is true. 38I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor." 39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did." 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41And because of his words many more became believers. 42They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

The Lord Almighty worked through the Jews to bring salvation to the world, first for them then salvation is preached to the rest of the world(The preaching of the words of God through Jesus was first heard in Israel. Then God used Jewish discpiles to preach salvation) John 4:23 speaks of a time that will come and has already come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in truth and in spirit. Jesus does not refer to Jews specifically here, but rather refers to anyone who will worship the Father(God) in spirit and in truth. It includes the Jews as well as the gentiles

Let us remember the story of Ruth. When Naomi sought to return to Israel after she heard that the Lord had come to the aid of His people by providing food for them (Ruth 1:6-7), she urged her "Gentile" daughter in law who were moabite by descent to return since their husbands(her sons) had died and she could not give them other husbands and they wept bitterly. But one, Ruth clung onto her mother - in - law and this is the conversation

11 But Naomi said, "Return home, my daughters. Why would you come with me? Am I going to have any more sons, who could become your husbands? 12 Return home, my daughters; I am too old to have another husband. Even if I thought there was still hope for me—even if I had a husband tonight and then gave birth to sons- 13 would you wait until they grew up? Would you remain unmarried for them? No, my daughters. It is more bitter for me than for you, because the LORD's hand has gone out against me!" 14 At this they wept again. Then Orpah kissed her mother-in-law good-by, but Ruth clung to her. 15 "Look," said Naomi, "your sister-in-law is going back to her people and her gods. Go back with her." 16 But Ruth replied, "Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. 17 Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the LORD deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me." 18 When Naomi realized that Ruth was determined to go with her, she stopped urging her. Because this Moabite woman chose to follow her mother-in-law and chose God to be her God, the genealogy of Jesus christ can be traced to this woman i.e. she got married to boaz who was Davids ancestor. Here is the transcript of the story from Ruth 4:13-22 13 So Boaz took Ruth and she became his wife. Then he went to her, and the LORD enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son. 14 The women said to Naomi: "Praise be to the LORD, who this day has not left you without a kinsman-redeemer. May he become famous throughout Israel! 15 He will renew your life and sustain you in your old age. For your daughter-in-law, who loves you and who is better to you than seven sons, has given him birth." 16 Then Naomi took the child, laid him in her lap and cared for him. 17 The women living there said, "Naomi has a son." And they named him Obed. He was the father of Jesse, the father of David.
18 This, then, is the family line of Perez:
Perez was the father of Hezron,
19 Hezron the father of Ram,
Ram the father of Amminadab,
20 Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon, [c]
21 Salmon the father of Boaz,
Boaz the father of Obed, 22 Obed the father of Jesse,
and Jesse the father of David.

Is it safe then to argue that God will accept anyone who makes Him the Lord in his/her life, who obeys Gods commands. Does it mean then that salvation is meant for Jews only or does it mean then that the God of Israel whom Jews, Muslims and Christians worship is meant for Jews only. Did not God create the man Adam from whom all men are descended. If salvation as well God are meant for Israel only, then God would have sustained one tribe only through Adam.The reason why God chose Israel to be a holy nation was that He wanted to reveal Himself to the world through that nation by giving them them the law and His precepts by which they should live by also to reveal his plan of salvation for the world and partly also because of Abrahams faith. God was pleased with Abraham because of His faith. Remember the word Abraham means father of many, and remember Gods promise to Abraham,

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring [b] all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

also in Genesis 12:1 -3 God makes a promise regarding Israel and the Messiah (Jesus)

1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

Note here (Genesis 12:3) God does not say I will bless Israel through you, but He says "...and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you"
The whole grand plan of Israels rescue from Egypt and its endurance through the ages to the birth of the Messiah was for that sole reason, that the Messiah be made known to the world first to Israel then to the rest of the world. So many bible verses come to my mind. The coming of the Messiah is foreshadowed in so many places in the old testament for example when Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden of eden, God makes a promise about earths salvation

Genesis 3: 14 -15

Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

This foreshadows the coming of the Messiah to crush out evil and sin perpetrated by the devil.To answer your question on whether Jesus referred to the canaanite woman as a dog when she came crying to him for the deliverance of her daughter from demon possession, here is the script

Mathew 15: 21-28

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

If Jesus meant only to heal and save the lost children of Israel, why then did he heal the daughter of this woman? Because she had great faith. God blessed Abraham because of his faith. God chose Moses because of his faith. At the time Jesus was with the Jews, he was fulfilling the word of God, that the hearing of the gospel must first be heard in Israel then spread to the rest of the world. For example when Jesus talks of the end times he specifically refers to the Gospel(Good news - God plans for mans salvation) to be first preached to all the nations

Mark 13: 9-13

9"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. 12"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

...Revelation 14 shows that Israel is the first fruit of Gods handiwork, in everything major that God does He moves through Israel. They are the chosen elect, the first fruits of His work. This does not mean that salvation is only meant for Jews only, but that in His plan God first works through the Jews then the rest of the world
Revelation 14:6 shows still that the gospel will be preached still to the inhabitants of the earth, even by angels

6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." Immediately after the Gospel is proclaimed,

Revelation 14:14-20, two harvests are made of the earth, the second is spoken of as the harvest of Gods wrath. So what does the first harvest refer to? I think this is the harvest of those who hearken unto the word of God in Revelation 6 when the Gospel is proclaimed to them.